Mayans in Georgia

Thought I would browse this YouTube, to recall the controversy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C2w-WSl3NN8

I don't remember if readers are ok with the idea of Mayans in Georgia, or want to make fun of it. The videographer Scott Wolter is easy to make fun of. But the rock piles and stone walls are real. So permit me to take a position on the idea that there were "Mayans" in North America.

I believe that mound building cultures dominated America for most of the last 2 thousand years. We are told that the earliest mound sites (eg "Poverty Point") are in southern US and predate Adena Mounds in the Mississippi as well as Olmec pyramids in Mexico. (I just looked it up, the Olmec were 1200 BC and Poverty Point is 1100 BC, so actually US sites are contemporaneous with oldest central American ones). They were building monuments all around the Caribbean at that time - for example the Caddo mounds in Texas.

In addition to the timing and architecture being connected between cultures of central and north America, it is clear [to me] that the basic cultures were a bit homogenous all over the Americas, in general. You look at a Mayan arrowhead [hard to find pictures of them] and it is the same as an arrowhead from the Mississippian mound building cultures of later years.

Pre-classic Mayan:

 Cahokian:

I have one of these arrowhead. I found it in Arizona at a "Sinagua" site - a pre-Anasazi, Puebloan people. What this tells me is that there was a culture that was pan-American with many local variations of the common theme. And they built mounds in the north and in the south. In the river valleys and alluvial deltas, they built in dirt. In the rocky highlands they built from stone. 

Everyone was building mounds and everyone was building terraces and everyone was making the same sort of arrowhead. It would not be surprising if an Indian from the north east could have been intelligible to one from Mississippi using a shared "trade language". I propose that mound building cultures were all similar and all shared some common behaviors and beliefs. These include not only mounds and arrowheads but also foods. The "three sisters" of corn, beans, and squash did not get to New England by coincidence but through trade and a continuity of cultures. Another example is the "4 color" division of: black, white, yellow, and red -corresponding with compass directions.

So why are we creating a false sense of separation between the Mayans and the Indians of Georgia? Of course the Mayan culture was present in Georgia. But those Indians should be called "Georgians". To make fun of this idea is to ignore the obvious cultural continuity that, I believe, stretched from Canada to Peru. You can make fun of it. You can argue about timing and the difference between when the Adena were in the Mississippi valley versus the Mayans in central America. But you have to make arbitrary distinctions to do it. Every place from Mexico to Massachusetts had examples of the same cultures.

Mayans in NC

Look Out! Mayans on the loose in the SE again! North Carolina this time!!!
http://www.archeolog-home.com/pages/content/caney-fork-creek-valley-usa-judaculla-rock-portrays-map-of-ancient-towns-in-the-north-carolina-mountains.html

"The locations of the rivers are remarkably similar to accurate maps today."

 Credit: Richard Thornton

Chocolate in Ohio again shows idea of "Mayans in Georgia" not so ridiculous

See here: Ancient DNA reveals cacao was consumed in present-day Georgia 1,000 years ago

[Note: the article is about the Etowah Mounds in Ohio. Not clear why the title says "Georgia".]

For reference, Trap Rock Gap researcher Thornton was being attacked for this proposal. See here for previous discussion: Rock Piles: Search results for Mayans

"America Unearthed" ....what!?

How come we never talked about this TV show that mentions Track Rock Gap within its first few moments? Seeing them get excited about stone walls is slightly comic for a New England-er but, on the other hand, I don't have a problem with the "Mayans in Georgia" hypothesis. 

Four minutes in, we are already looking at rock piles. I never saw them before on TV.
Then mounds at Ocmulgee are spectacular.

In episode 2, in the Mustang Mountains of AZ, at a pass, here is a state archeologist stepping on a rock pile without noticing it.

 

And here were some underwater rock piles from Wisconsin in Episode 3

Unfortunately the reasoning was such schlock I had to stop watching after that.

1,100-year-old Mayan ruins found in North Georgia

by JimP

Click here for story:1,100-year-old Mayan ruins found in North Georgia

Archaeologists have discovered the ruins of an ancient Mayan city in the mountains of North Georgia believed to be at least 1,100 years old. According to Richard Thornton at Examiner.com, the ruins are reportedly what remains of a city built by Mayans fleeing wars, volcanic eruptions, droughts and f...

More re Mayan's building stone mounds in Georgia

A reader Kathe B. writes:

In regards to this page http://rockpiles.blogspot.com/2010/06/archaeological-and-ethnohistorical.html on your site that I found while trying to find more information on this http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2011/12/22/1100-year-old-mayan-ruins-found-in-north-georgia/ and this http://www.examiner.com/architecture-design-in-national/massive-1-100-year-old-maya-site-discovered-georgia-s-mountains

I thought you might find them an interesting read considering your blog (which I've only just found).

(PWAX) I strongly recommend that last link. It is much more detailed and convincing that there actually is a Mayan presence in Georgia. Of course, let me be the first to say, that things like small flat topped pyramids in Fitchburg might have a connection to those people as well. The only problem I see with the argument of Mayans coming directly to the eastern US, is that so many cultures between Mexico and the eastern US have the same kind of arrowheads as the Maya - so it should be viewed [I think] as a continuum from Mexico to here.

A comment on comments

I always wished readers were a bit more active in commenting. So when I glanced at the "Jason Colavito" site mentioned previously, I was jealous to see a post with 72 comments.

It turns out, these comments are mostly vituperative commenter-vs-commenter-vs-author. Truth be told I would not mind an occasional controversy [did we have one over the "Mayans in Georgia"?] but the general principle seems to be: people who hang out reading and writing mutiple comments, tend to have emotional agendas. Put another way, they need to get a life.

From that point of view, maybe the few occasional comments we get here - on Rock Piles - are just about right. Comment when needed, not otherwise.

Red Wing MN - The Goodhue County Historical Museum

We went to the museum as a follow up to visiting some of the "cairns". I wanted to see info about the geology of the area, maybe an arrowhead or two, and perhaps more info about the rock piles. I was well served.

Apparently there were more mounds in Red Wing than anywhere else in the US. This map, although wrong, has some important details:

Later on, I looked at this pretty carefully. The little "stars" represent "cairns" and I count 12 of them in the lower portion of the diagram. 

My guess is that after visiting this museum, a visitor will be more confused about the Indians than before they visited. To my mind, the way the rock piles are all on one (western) side of the river; the way they are all up on bluffs but few of the earthen mounds are up there; the way some of them are clearly much older than others, says to me that this is not all the same Indians - the past is not all one, white-washed, uniformity. What he have here, along the Mississipi, is: earlier people, replaced by mound builders, replaced by the Dakota Sioux. They use the label Silvernale and manage to mix together [or at least fail to create meaningful boundaries between] just about everybody who ever happened to paddle by on the river. In more recent times this was a place somewhat between the Athabascan Sioux, the Algonquian Chippewa, and the people from down south (not sure "Natchez" is the right term). Today, I wonder if the Sioux are happy to be confused with the people who made the many mounds, shown dotting the map.

Another thing I would quibble with is the idea that these "cairns" are all the same. I found three distinct types of structures on that one hill (not counting the 'alignment'). None of them could have ever looked like that fat 'biscuit' that we see in the old black and white photo. Behold the entire poster:

Two details:

Wow, those earthen mounds must have really been something. Quoting the poster, quoting Edward Schmidt in 1939: 

What shall we say of a state that allows such a display of prehistoric monuments to be utterly destroyed?

It might as well be Massachusetts, as far as that goes.

As for arrowheads, the display furthers the confusion about the variety of people from the past, with a photo of an old gentleman proudly holding his best paleo point. But they displayed the results of more recent digs.

What I am seeing is mostly side-notched points from the same style as mound builders and Mayans. Presumably these are the "Middle Mississippian" arrowheads. Ignoring the curious expertise that allows them to date rocks while ignoring the archaeological context they are found in, I can still say - why did they mung it all together? Adding, that the lighting was such that, if you bent over to look closely, you blocked the light and could not see anything. 

In spite of my bitching, it was a gorgeous little exhibit, within a beautifully appointed County Museum. They had dollars to spare. 

When I look carefully at the red dots and stars on the map, although it is hard locating the landform of the "Spring Creek Prairie" conservation land, I don't see any sign of 5 (or six) piles close to each other, nor any sign of the lone mound at the end of the ridge. In fact it is somewhat impossible to match the bluffs shown on the survey map with today's topographical map. But it sure does leave me wanting to go back and try to get some things right. 

"No. Nobody Found Mayan Ruins"

I thought I would take a look at what else is being said on the internet about this story of 9UN367. Perhaps this is a typical example, illustrated with a pretty map. I want to comment that the connecting of Track Rock Gap to the Mayans may be nonsense, but lets be clear about the logic. There is a site with physical characteristics that are being documented and speculated about. You cannot dismiss the speculation by quoting theory from some other sites and other unrelated facts. So, for example, Thornton is looking at terracing at Track Rock Gap and saying it is uniquely like Mayan structures. The author of the link above has nothing to say about the facts and so their argument is just huffing and puffing. By contrast, pointing out that there are lots of other examples of such "terraces" and that they are all the way up into New England and (I suppose*) Canada, employs a different critique and is, I think, a fairer argument.

*Take a look at Bayers Lake and Birchtown maps. Or is it that these sorts of maps always look alike?

2014 - Review

Here are my most memorable places and things from 2014  [I may have missed things because it is difficult to navigate the history of this blog]

January:
Finally got to Codman Hill in Harvard without fear of tresspassing, as it has become public land. Lots of different sizes and types of piles. I liked this one at the hilltop.

Found nice features on Green Hill in Shrewsbury on Fortune Drive:

also this classic miniature pyramid across the street from the Hill:

February:

There was too much snow on the ground for exploring.

Looking at the articles, what stands out in my mind is the claim of "Mayans in Georgia". It was not too well received here but I continue to think it an interesting and, actually, pretty non-controversial suggestion.

There were posts from new contributors: Curtis Hoffman and Sydney Blackwell.  Later in the year Matthew Howe began contributing lots of pictures and information from the Holliston area. Welcome and thanks!

Also some stone tools. Might as well appreciate these little snapshots of ancient times. My river rocks from Waltham commercial building flower beds:

clay beads from Sturbridge:

arrowheads from Narragansett Bay:

March:

Readers sent in more pictures and sites, alleviating the snow imprisonment for me. 

Equinunk PA (John P):

Sinking Creek Mountain (Tim MacSweeney got this one):

Still a lot of snow on the ground. Things starting to peek through. Chris Pittman starts finding arrowheads.

I finally put together a coherent theory of how marker pile sites function to track moving shadow positions during the year.

Cairns threatened by development at Lawton-Foster Rd in Hopkinton RI.

Major finds south of Peppercorn Hill along Camp Str. Milford. Not surprising, this is a very busy area full of sites; or one big continuous site - depending on how you count them.

A site from Gamble Lake, Michigan with "stone donut" piles - proving that the rectangular pile with hollow is a universal phenomenon in the eastern US (we saw near identical features from New Brunswick, Canada):

Also, sites were reported from southeastern CT, from Mt Shasta in CA, and there was ongoing discussion of Track Rock Gap in Georgia.

April:

I found new rock piles in my home town, Concord, which is always a surprise and slightly embarrassing. I am supposed to know this place. Just goes to show that a site can be hiding in any 50 foot square piece of woods. These new piles were just uphill from Minot Pratt's spring. Also my eyes were opened to features I probably ignored in the past:

The number "9" shape was mentioned recently.

Headwaters of Fall Brook in Sterling:

Fine cairns from Worcester NY (thanks Tim):

 

Notable stories evolved with the perjury charge of "A URI professor". A sad story in several ways.

West side of South Manoosnoc finally revealed a new mound site. It is fair to say I have been looking for such a place for a while. Glad to find it in the snow:

 

and a structure against a boulder:

More amazing cairns sent in from, this time, from West Virginia (thanks again Tim):

[This reminds me that this was a year after I noticed how dogs obsessively hang out around rock piles. I am sure there is a residual smell they can detect. Maybe dogs are better than sonar for certain determinations (yeah...you know what I am talking about).] 

Also some interesting rock art at this Facebook page from the owner of the above site.

I had forgotten this. Apparently I was a good boy and found several sites on South Manoosnoc. Including some effigies near a western sub-summit.

Tim M. is finding new sites and Chris P. new arrowheads.

More incredible cairns, this time from Eastern PA:

[It is interesting, how similar these "cairns" are from PA, NY, and WV. Maybe people only notice the big things but the smaller things are there too, unnoticed.]

Still snowy, still reporting on river rocks from Waltham. I love these things:

May:

Continued exploring northwestern Willard Brook State Forest. A "chamber":

Also several hilltop sites in Leominster and Westminster.

The town of Acton finished clearing a grid site as part of their "Trail Through Time". This included signs showing the grid:

And newly visible piles - meaningful to me (cuz the shape is a variant of a "9"):

June:

Chris P is having some luck:

(My luck consisted in finding a pair of nesting goshawks.)

A new stone "Beehive" from Medway found by Matt Howe:

July:

Not much exploring going on.

August:

Franklin State Forest. They have piles with hollows too:

(If this was a hole someone dug into the pile, the removed rocks should be scattered around. Note, they are not.)

I am spending weekends at the beach; not in the woods. Matt Howe sends in many photos from Holliston, Milford, Hopkinton.

September/October:

Rocky Pond Brook in Hollis NH, some large piles integrated with adjacent homesteads:

Found new rock piles at Weatherbee Ave in Acton, on a Sunday stroll with my wife:

Top of Juniper Hill, Ashby:

Aside from NEARA, I notice the advent of many smaller regional organizations promoting the idea of Native American Stonework. It is fair to say this idea has taken pretty firm hold in several of the towns in this area: around Concord, around Deerfield, and in many other places I am not tracking closely.

November/December:

Grand mound sites in Ashburnham:

And northern Townsend:

 

and

 

Some nice sites in Westminster here, and at High Ridge:

(compare to what I was just looking at on Noon Hill - it is the same as the structure at 'C')

Other smeared rectangles at Lovewell Pond in Nashua NH:

Various strangeness on the flat sub-summit in Franklin State Forest:

The incredible furry mounds at the top of Falulah Brook - how could I forget these?

I am spending lots of time exploring in Walpole and Medfield. There are lots of interesting sites at Noon Hill and I am well pleased with the old things I spot there:

Not too dramatic a year. Mostly filling in gaps and extending previous explorations.